Curse

AlsPals · Nov 25, 2009, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Maelstrom, OF, and Blinding Surge all say hi, as well as a whole bunch of skills which I'm probably not aware of.

The three you listed actually support keeping ER in place. Maelstrom is a sub-optimal skill that will cause scatter in HM(the mode Water magic is better than Fire) AND cause exhaustion. For what purpose? Interrupting spells? Mesmer/ranger can do it better for far less and without such penalties. Obsidian....cmon. Outside of farming or "Trinity" duty, that skill gets no practical use. Its a niche skill. Lastly, we have surge. MAAAAAAAAAAN, outside of PvP, its a total waste, esp going in air attribute. Seriously? Water Magic has a spammable "almost" blind...eruption is better. ER really isnt that bad, and its a build that ISNT mandatory. If we got gripes, lets talk about the rediculous stat pumping that leads to these builds. Or the fact that a PVE skill,(yup)selfless spirit, got nerfed after getting the buff it needed. The problem is monks lack decent e-management, esp in the clutches of 200+ hit foes.

Premium Unleaded · Nov 25, 2009, 06:34 PM // 18:34

If anything, ER should be buffed so we can have less people taking their stupid 7x scattering fire magic AoE bars into HM without any considering as to whether the group is actually carrying any suitable snares or if their damage is actually going to reach double figures.

Anyway, an ER would still need another backliner, like to deal removal or other minor-ish stuff. If they don't, then you're probably able to just plough through the area fast enough that it's probably better to just have an SR-powered backline or something that has a slightly lower downtime anyway. Mo still offers better bar compression, just at the cost of requiring better awareness from the team. There isn't really anything in particular that an ER + other can do that a Mo/ + other can't in a non-retarded team. It's just that the ER backline offers a larger margin for error as long as you keep ER up.

reaper with no name · Nov 25, 2009, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Except spam 300 hp heals every 1/4 of a sec.

And infinite energy (and by extension, the ability to spam prots on recharge).

Which is, you know, the main point of a monk.

Just because something works, doesn't mean something else isn't significantly better. After all, mending wammos work.

Premium Unleaded · Nov 25, 2009, 06:49 PM // 18:49

If the team needs a ~900hp heal every second after prots, then their approach to the problem should be questioned.

reaper with no name · Nov 25, 2009, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlsPals

The three you listed actually support keeping ER in place. Maelstrom is a sub-optimal skill that will cause scatter in HM(the mode Water magic is better than Fire) AND cause exhaustion. For what purpose? Interrupting spells? Mesmer/ranger can do it better for far less and without such penalties. Obsidian....cmon. Outside of farming or "Trinity" duty, that skill gets no practical use. Its a niche skill. Lastly, we have surge. MAAAAAAAAAAN, outside of PvP, its a total waste, esp going in air attribute. Seriously? Water Magic has a spammable "almost" blind...eruption is better. ER really isnt that bad, and its a build that ISNT mandatory. If we got gripes, lets talk about the rediculous stat pumping that leads to these builds. Or the fact that a PVE skill,(yup)selfless spirit, got nerfed after getting the buff it needed. The problem is monks lack decent e-management, esp in the clutches of 200+ hit foes.

Water magic also has these things called snares. Great for keeping people in range of your maelstrom. Well, if water has a near blind, then that just makes water even better, now doesn't it?

And keep in mind, I don't have an elementalist. I'm just listing some spells I've heard of eles using.

By the way, if SF gets nerfed as it is believed, OF tanks will be all the rage again. So they'll definitely have a use.

The Drunkard · Nov 25, 2009, 10:02 PM // 22:02

meh, ele's aren't really useful to HM otherwise. I don't mind having an uber nonmonk healer since it does have signifficant drawbacks.

/notsigned

Test Me · Nov 26, 2009, 12:04 AM // 00:04

So is it just me or both Elnore and the reaper guy are two trolls with an agenda of trying to make ER seem like a problem when it's obviously not... AND doing so on two different thread in the same time under the umbrella that one is nerf ER and the other is nerf Infuse? ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElnoreVarda

Okay, for those that cant think/read; the suggestions I suggested WILL NOT kill ER.

But you fail to produce any build bar ... at least usable if not obviously subpar.

Quote:

Ill say it again; MY SUGGESTED NERFS WILL NOT KILL ER. It will make it weaker, but still viable.

You can keep saying that as much as you want, so far that's all you're doing... saying something you expect us to ... take for granted?

Quote:

The ER template is the most powerful eles have atm. It needs a nerf, not a killing blow.

Because performing builds are scourge that need to be removed from the game. Then nerf: discordway, spiritway, sabway, racway, imbagon, UA, HB, etc. Because they are the most "powerful" templates their respective profession has. And since it works... it must be nerfed even though you can't make an argument that it's abused like perma or 600s.

Quote:

In my opinion, the right way of nerfing it is to tone down the power and make it much more tricky to use, to promote skillful play. Atm the biggest problem for an ER is to perform as well as the 2-3 monks it has the power of.

You've been well brainwashed: "promote skillful play", yeah right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Which is, you know, the main point of a monk.

[sarcasm]Oh and nuking... which is you know... the main point of an ele. Oh wait... every other class, even the RoJ monks nuke better than eles these days. There, there. So much for the irony.[/sarcasm]

The last time I am going to say it. I have never seen a group anywhere spamming "GLF er ele" Proof of how much OP the build is I guess.

However I see allover the place: "GLF Mo to go" over and over and over again the same story. [sarcasm]Nerf the monks! They're obviously overpowered since any team anywhere needs at least 2 of them to do anything.[/sarcasm]

ElnoreVarda · Nov 26, 2009, 12:34 AM // 00:34

No im not a troll...

ER is the only thing I play. I if anyone should know what its capable of. Thats why it should be toned down. In my parties, monks clean and bring soh at 16 smiting prayers. Why? Because monk healing/protting is lol compared to ele healing/protting with ER in its current form.

Did you even read my nerf suggestions? If it only works with ele skills, bring burning speed -- youll still have unlimited power, just not as easily used. If the health gain is removed, youll still be maintaining prot bond and spamming prots. Disabling none ele skills will just limit spamming, no power lost at all. The more complex nerf (with energy set to zero) will let you spam too, but you will be more vurnable to removal/interrupts.

Ive already stated that this build hasnt entered meta yet, but is slowly becoming known to a bigger audience. Lets take care of the issue before it becomes a real problem.

Regarding the hero setup concepts: they work fine, the real problem is that people rather play with heroes than with real people. Nerf hero AI, or promote grouping with real people in some other way.

Imbagon: you mean SY? SY has become a staple skill in pve, because its so powerful. I dare say its the most powerful skill in the game.

UA/HB: lol...

And since you are basically asking for it: I just want ER nerfed a tad, so people like you will go all ballistic because you die and fail all the time, while I can go on ERing just fine, with some slight bar/usage adjustments.

Test Me · Nov 26, 2009, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElnoreVarda

And since you are basically asking for it: I just want ER nerfed a tad, so people like you will go all ballistic because you die and fail all the time, while I can go on ERing just fine, with some slight bar/usage adjustments.

Finally the troll is being honest!

) You're such an elite player, what can I say. You want to reserve your own build. This is so hilarious!!! Now I understand why you're crying here so badly, you want to feel special cause you think you're so good running ER builds that you could have it all customized for yourself.

All bow to the sole ER true master. You should get a title for your phenomenal skills in using ER. Obviously someone with an average IQ would not be able to smash 8 buttons in the order and combination you do... just as good.

AlsPals · Nov 26, 2009, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Water magic also has these things called snares. Great for keeping people in range of your maelstrom. Well, if water has a near blind, then that just makes water even better, now doesn't it?

And keep in mind, I don't have an elementalist. I'm just listing some spells I've heard of eles using.

By the way, if SF gets nerfed as it is believed, OF tanks will be all the rage again. So they'll definitely have a use.

Totally agree with the snares arguement, but with the cost of Maelstrom being 25 and AOE snares starting at 10, its as I said, suboptimal. IN addition, Maelstrom is Adjacent range...it takes half a second for a snared HM monster(who has half cast speed by default) to walk out of it even with a 66% snare. Maelstrom has no practical use in HM, and your wasting your time if you use it in NM, unless there is a custom build needed for a boss(which likely an SF sin is going to be hired to do, assuming he is willing to waste his time.) Blurred Vision is the "near blind" I referred to. Lets say we do like the 50% chance of missing hits. Lets also remember in HM, monsters auto attack at double the speed...your wasting your time. The AOE necro debuffs means anyone would be willing to take HM hits(which is one of the many reasons Necros are the top PVE class). Chances are if you are in water magic, its to hex foes so they can be nuked with Cry/Esurge/FoC...but then again, why not strap up a Me/E and let them use deep freeze AND have meaningful damage. Lastly, sure, OF tanks can replace SF for alot of things. DIfference? Attacks dont auto miss, they have a 50% movement penalty(offset by cons, sure), and cannot do things in the general SF speed. In order to survive, OF usually needs party support ala bonds. Your not going to godsmack whole areas with an OF, as opposed to SF sin, which can move without hindrance and clear most areas. So like ive been trying to indicate, since I have an ele, in HM, unless your farming or willing to play strictly support, your going to suck. SF may do 106 damage in its description, but when you hit a monster in hm and see 25~ damage, you realize you can easily be replaced by any henchman. Even Eve.

reaper with no name · Nov 26, 2009, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

So is it just me or both Elnore and the reaper guy are two trolls with an agenda of trying to make ER seem like a problem when it's obviously not... AND doing so on two different thread in the same time under the umbrella that one is nerf ER and the other is nerf Infuse? ...

But you fail to produce any build bar ... at least usable if not obviously subpar.

You can keep saying that as much as you want, so far that's all you're doing... saying something you expect us to ... take for granted?

Because performing builds are scourge that need to be removed from the game. Then nerf: discordway, spiritway, sabway, racway, imbagon, UA, HB, etc. Because they are the most "powerful" templates their respective profession has. And since it works... it must be nerfed even though you can't make an argument that it's abused like perma or 600s.

You've been well brainwashed: "promote skillful play", yeah right.

[sarcasm]Oh and nuking... which is you know... the main point of an ele. Oh wait... every other class, even the RoJ monks nuke better than eles these days. There, there. So much for the irony.[/sarcasm]

The last time I am going to say it. I have never seen a group anywhere spamming "GLF er ele" Proof of how much OP the build is I guess.

However I see allover the place: "GLF Mo to go" over and over and over again the same story. [sarcasm]Nerf the monks! They're obviously overpowered since any team anywhere needs at least 2 of them to do anything.[/sarcasm]

Nukers in general are suboptimal, because melee does far more damage.

Hey, if we have to have either monks or eles be worthless, then isn't it better for the better healer to be the one who is actually intended to heal? Better than having both be doing something they're not intended to, right?

The usefulness of something has absolutely nothing to do with how good it actually is. Otherwise dervishes would never be able to get into groups.

Remember, the majority of the GW community thinks that redbar monks are better than prot monks. Does that mean that prot is useless and we should all stop talking about how great prot is? Of course not. The GW community doesn't ask for ER healers because they don't know how good they are. But if they did, monks would find themselves in the same boat as dervishes.

Now, will ER become meta? I have no idea. But it doesn't matter. The fact that ER healers make monks worthless by comparison is reason enough to nerf them.

ElnoreVarda · Nov 26, 2009, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Reaper; I think you are missing something. Even with ER eles, monks arent useless. They still clean and buff superbly, and they still do their healing/protting thingy fine even if ERs are miles better. However, saying that eles could run support instead, and still be valid is silly, since primary ele support is kinda fail.

Saying that monks should heal better than eles because they are intended to is silly. The problem isnt that eles can monk, the problem is that they do it with the power of 2-3 monks/rits/whatever support.

Dervs dont suck, Ill be just as happy to have a dervish as I would be to have a warrior.

UnChosen · Nov 27, 2009, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Nukers in general are suboptimal, because melee does far more damage.

Hey, if we have to have either monks or eles be worthless, then isn't it better for the better healer to be the one who is actually intended to heal? Better than having both be doing something they're not intended to, right?

The usefulness of something has absolutely nothing to do with how good it actually is. Otherwise dervishes would never be able to get into groups.

Remember, the majority of the GW community thinks that redbar monks are better than prot monks. Does that mean that prot is useless and we should all stop talking about how great prot is? Of course not. The GW community doesn't ask for ER healers because they don't know how good they are. But if they did, monks would find themselves in the same boat as dervishes.

Now, will ER become meta? I have no idea. But it doesn't matter. The fact that ER healers make monks worthless by comparison is reason enough to nerf them.

So, would you advocate to nerf melee damage? Because melee damage make eles worthless....see? Same argument. Ele also got screwed out of their original intended role, and you don't see people trying to correct that. Monk at least still can clean better and have more versatility than ER eles. Eles on the other hand are still stuck with all their spell doing less than 30 damage in HM while every other class have superior damage options....

Desert Rose · Nov 27, 2009, 08:48 AM // 08:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Ele also got screwed out of their original intended role, and you don't see people trying to correct that.

Eles never got screwed out of their original intended role (support), their intended role is just not very useful in PvE.
To fix it you have to improve the AI and builds of the monsters so that supporters like the ele are actually useful.

UnChosen · Nov 27, 2009, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Eles never got screwed out of their original intended role (support), their intended role is just not very useful in PvE.
To fix it you have to improve the AI and builds of the monsters so that supporters like the ele are actually useful.

Sorry, but when over 60% of their spells are just straight damage, not to mention the freaking instruction booklet and the official website classify Eles as "damage dealers" then I'm pretty sure that's their intended role.

But let's assume that they are a support class, they're STILL screwed, cuz eles don't have that many useful support skill to begin with. Blinding surge, blinding flash, and a few water slow spells...I can count them on my two hands.

And what about all of their plain damage skills, are you suggesting those skills are put there just for fun? Those skills right now are not good even for "support" damage. 15+ energy, exhaustion, 20s+ cool down to hit for less than 30 damage.

Those skills were actually slightly more useful when the AI was actually more stupid and there was no super high armor monsters.

Either way eles got screwed whether or not they damage dealers OR support. They either need a damage/armor penetration adjustment to the many many straight damage skill they have, or they need a complete redesign so they actually can "support" without relying on less than 10 skills in their entire repertoire.

upier · Nov 27, 2009, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Well, look a warrior's bar - a class that is designed to be a damage dealer.
You have some 3 attack skills, and IAS (which in the ele's case means GoLE) and then there is utility.

So if you want to play a damage dealing ele - use your 3 pve slots for damage.
And use the rest of the bar to support.
Which means you run your average AP nuker with either water/earth or air support. And that means you have access to KDs, blind, slowdowns, weakness, ...

Seems like a VERY decent addition to the party.

UnChosen · Nov 27, 2009, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Well, look a warrior's bar - a class that is designed to be a damage dealer.
You have some 3 attack skills, and IAS (which in the ele's case means GoLE) and then there is utility.

So if you want to play a damage dealing ele - use your 3 pve slots for damage.
And use the rest of the bar to support.
Which means you run your average AP nuker with either water/earth or air support. And that means you have access to KDs, blind, slowdowns, weakness, ...

Seems like a VERY decent addition to the party.

It doesn't work that way thanks to the HM armor! There's absolutely no point to ele bringing any of their damage skills because when "nukes" get reduced to 30 dmg a hit they become worse than a War/Derv auto attacking. KD is also better done by hammer wars, weakness is better done by necros (AoE enfeebling blood booyah), etc. etc.

Every other caster has better armor ignoring damage options while have more choices of support skills...just look at sabway and dicordway, and the current rit spirt spammers.

zwei2stein · Nov 27, 2009, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

It doesn't work that way thanks to the HM armor! There's absolutely no point to ele bringing any of their damage skills because when "nukes" get reduced to 30 dmg a hit they become worse than a War/Derv auto attacking. KD is also better done by hammer wars, weakness is better done by necros (AoE enfeebling blood booyah), etc. etc.

Every other caster has better armor ignoring damage options while have more choices of support skills...just look at sabway and dicordway, and the current rit spirt spammers.

EBSOH adds armor ignoring element to armor affected damage.

Xenomortis · Nov 27, 2009, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

EBSOH adds armor ignoring element to armor affected damage.

But not enough to make anyone care.
If you run that and Cracked Armour, Eles start to pull back, but they're still a long way off.

Unless they go back to AP+PvE skill spammage, but any caster can pull that shit off.

upier · Nov 27, 2009, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

It doesn't work that way thanks to the HM armor! There's absolutely no point to ele bringing any of their damage skills because when "nukes" get reduced to 30 dmg a hit they become worse than a War/Derv auto attacking. KD is also better done by hammer wars, weakness is better done by necros (AoE enfeebling blood booyah), etc. etc.

Every other caster has better armor ignoring damage options while have more choices of support skills...just look at sabway and dicordway, and the current rit spirt spammers.

As I have said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So if you want to play a damage dealing ele - use your 3 pve slots for damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Unless they go back to AP+PvE skill spammage, but any caster can pull that shit off.

And that's exactly what I am talking about.
3 PvE skills will provide you with a very decent damage output. Now combine that with the ability to spam wards, or slowdowns, or blind or Blurred, ... and you are dealing with a nice contribution to the party.

Oh, and I am PRETTY sure the mesmers have it worse.